Curse

Ken Dei · May 25, 2006, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Alright, my take.

1.) I run from touchers, it is utterly futile to kill them without the appropriate build. And all of my chars have better things to do. So no, I don't stand still and die.

2.) Touch rangers are mildly overpowered, they were not a problem before Factions, but with dulpicated skills they've become more then a simple nuisance. And what about Ch. 3. What if they duplicate skills again. Can you imagine the living hell that would bring if nothing is changed now?

3.) There are other players on the field other then touch rangers. not everyone can build themselves to deal with them. And if you do plan for one and there are none, you've wasted a build. Stop pretending every arena's like another. Alliances Battles are not like HoH, you can't plan for everything. RA's even worse, and TA's almost as bad as RA. (I keep my self in 12v12 for the hope that someone came in with effective e-denial...a vain hope I guarentee)

4.) Just because you're an obsessive know-it-all elitist who only does HoH, and doesn't take 12v12 seriously, doesn't mean others don't. But then, that's always been the elitist problem. They figure anyone who doesn't do what they do is a whiney noob who knows nothing.

5.) How in the hell is the act of sucking the life force from someone and adding it to yours NOT A SPELL? Seriously, magic has to be involved in here somewhere. Screw being attack skills, they should probably be SPELLS.

6.) Counters to degen for the touch ranger, minor but there. For example, Troll Unguent, Life Tranfer (if they're crazy and don't bring Offering), Life Siphon. And all the health they're not keeping though those is being stolen off your team.

7.) I'm gonna say this now. I don't care if you dissagree because even if the imbalence isn't big now, new skills are probably going to make it worse. I'm already aware of the available "counters" and state they aren't good enough. If you think I'm a noob, to bad, your problem. If you can find a more lenient balence as opposed to being attack skills or spells, sure, let's hear it.

samifly · May 25, 2006, 11:30 AM // 11:30

So should blind stop blackout? or plauge touch? How useless would plauge touch be if it could be blocked by blind. These are the *same* things, essentially as the vamp touch skills.
It does not matter that ones doing damage while the other takes out your enitre skill bar, or gives you a potentially deadly condition. If you nerf these touch skills you would have to nerf all them. Expertise is a whole lot less useful if it doesnt cover the rather small amount of non-spell skills. If everything in this game matched its description, alot of things would be diffrent.

And btw lifestealing != damage. This is an essential fact, that you need to know if you want to use many builds.

Please, for the love of god dont nerf a build that you dont like with a solution that is so broadreaching that they could affect everything from 55 monks to the usefulness of mesmers and the entire class of rangers.

samifly · May 25, 2006, 11:36 AM // 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Dei

Alright, my take.

2.) Touch rangers are mildly overpowered, they were not a problem before Factions, but with dulpicated skills they've become more then a simple nuisance. And what about Ch. 3. What if they duplicate skills again. Can you imagine the living hell that would bring if nothing is changed now?

5.) How in the hell is the act of sucking the life force from someone and adding it to yours NOT A SPELL? Seriously, magic has to be involved in here somewhere. Screw being attack skills, they should probably be SPELLS.

@2 seriously doubt that anet will double these skills again - they might have just wanted to give touch rangers a boost for this expansion. If they duplicate these skills again, then, and only then will I agree that they are overpowered.

Well I think the whole thing about them costing 15 energy and you have to physically touch them compensates for them being not spells. shock isnt a spell, blackout, plague touch, etc.. seems to be a pretty basic consept, if you have to touch, its not a spell.

Vermilion Okeanos · May 25, 2006, 01:07 PM // 13:07

Although fragile, but considering that majority of the skills in the game has minor to no effect on touch ranger, I must come to the conclusion that it is indeed a broken build.

If they would nerf MM, I see no reason they wouldn't nerf this one.

Personally, I would put a delay on these touch skills, like those of PBAoE and conjure nightmare's 1.75 sec delay.

The Real Roy Keane · May 25, 2006, 01:15 PM // 13:15

The only place in the game the touch ranger comes even remotely close to being overpowered is in RA, so it's not really in need of a nerf at all.

Molotovich · May 25, 2006, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mai

Quoted for truth

If your team cant figure out that you can just...you know...kite or deal with a touch ranger then yeah you deserve to lose. Touchers have been around for a while so it's not really a new build.

And since when did ppl take alliance battles seriously? o.o

When you need to farm faction seriously and dont have the time to wait 20 minutes in aspenwood or jade quarry?

And about teams without a caster, well... Assasins arent very loved ja?

Dont you believe me? go to unwaking waters with one and try to get a team (NOT MAKING IT, getting into one), same goes for alliance battles (not the random ones, the saltspray beach sort of)

But well... running like chicken from a thing that only "touches" you sounds like the most stupid idea i ever heard, and in battle i have seen that those guys only fall down to 3 or more people (i had a tounch ranger in my team once, thats what was required to take him down... all the time)

Chicken Ftw · May 25, 2006, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molotovich

When you need to farm faction seriously and dont have the time to wait 20 minutes in aspenwood or jade quarry?

But well... running like chicken from a thing that only "touches" you sounds like the most stupid idea i ever heard, and in battle i have seen that those guys only fall down to 3 or more people (i had a tounch ranger in my team once, thats what was required to take him down... all the time)

lol... farming faction seriously in alliance battle... s'like taking RA seriously. You won't know what team you'll get, some people will likely be there just to grief, and it's not that fast of faction gain, really, unless you end up on a godly team.

I'm tired of hearing that touch rangers only fall to 3 people. As someone who's played one, I'm aware of the weaknesses and strengths. Sure, your W/Mo isn't likely to take one down, no. But then, warrior vs ranger has never been a fair fight. Anyone who knows how to kite ruins a touch ranger's day. This "running away to fight something is stupid" argument is just dumb. So your ele's gonna stand toe to toe with that angry warrior? What about that bunny thumper? Didn't think so. Kiting's a legitimate strategy against any melee class, which touch rangers happen to fall under.

Nivryx · May 25, 2006, 02:18 PM // 14:18

i say just take out vampric touch. before the release of chapter two (and clone spells) i was able to run a successful touch build without the clone skill. ever since factions though, i have seen an increase in touch rangers and its rather annoying to see so many giving touch rangers a bad name since even a build with just vampiric touch & bite can be highly successful now due to people trying to counter it when you run up to them with whirling defense, ineptitude, empathy, throw dirt, and other useless skills. so far the only single skill encounter's that have been used against me are diversion (mesmer) and distracting shot (ranger), both of which still failed since i had whirling defense while fighting the ranger and when diversion was cast on me i simply used storm chaser to avoid it affecting touch/bite. I myself started fearing the nerf once factions came out, and again every time i am able to ace an entire team...which has become greatly easier to do in random arena with the clone skill present.

/signed

Chicken Ftw · May 25, 2006, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nivryx

i say just take out vampric touch. before the release of chapter two (and clone spells) i was able to run a successful touch build without the clone skill. ever since factions though, i have seen an increase in touch rangers and its rather annoying to see so many giving touch rangers a bad name since even a build with just vampiric touch & bite can be highly successful now due to people trying to counter it when you run up to them with whirling defense, ineptitude, empathy, throw dirt, and other useless skills. so far the only single skill encounter's that have been used against me are diversion (mesmer) and distracting shot (ranger), both of which still failed since i had whirling defense while fighting the ranger and when diversion was cast on me i simply used storm chaser to avoid it affecting touch/bite. I myself started fearing the nerf once factions came out, and again every time i am able to ace an entire team...which has become greatly easier to do in random arena with the clone skill present.

/signed

I think this is our entire problem. People are basing the overpoweredness off RA. Nerf monks plx, anytime I'm on a team with one we usually go to 10 straight. >.>

Priest Of Sin · May 25, 2006, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Again, the solution is the elementalist. It goes alone the same principle as FoW. Knock things on their butt, they can't do a whole lot. And if a single touch ranger is after you, run like a headless chicken untill you find a big, strong, hammer warrior to kill it.

Cyril Aspect · May 25, 2006, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gargle Blaster

Cryil, i am going to quote your entire post and respond to all of it as i think you are missing my points... please read my previous posts.

balance is what im looking for...

Balance is what this thread is all about... im looking for reasons for why you think necros should be able to touch you when they are blind... i really dont care about the wording as much as i would like to see these skills to be affected by things like empathy (which i think is reasonable as these skills do lower your health).

.

ok this is exactly the point I am making, touch rangers are not regardless of the oddity of function or incosistency of game mechanics labels overpowered.

they are not in need of balanceing, you are not after balance you wish for accuracy in skill type and naming conventions which also have rule changes with them.

the whole point is that you are aksing to have somehting balanced which is perfectly in line and in fact a little under the power of many other builds.

it does not matter how the mechanics work exactly, so long as there is no potential for the combinaiton to become overwhelmingly dominant due to it being more efficient than all other types of builds.

this is the very opposite of the touch ranger. it is at best a silly gimmick build and won't do much of anyhting another class can't do better

making warrior hate (even some of it) have effects on it would end it completely and remove what little amusement there is in running it.

in short as I said before nothing and I do mean nothing requires modifying the rules if it is still within the acceptable range for offense and defense.

StrongBow · May 25, 2006, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stabber

For the Nth freaking time: life stealing is not damage!

Does it get reduced by Prot Spirit?

No?

Then it ain't damage.

Wrap your brain around this simple concept please.

Sorry bit late on replying on your post.

Thanks for correcting me!

And oh, next time try to be polite when replying or quoting people, i know what life stealing is!

CC

SB

The Son Of Morgoth · May 25, 2006, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

Why is it that any time anything new that doesn't completely suck comes out, there are mass cries for it to be nerfed.

Anet already way over-nerfed way too many things. Let's stop the nerfing.

Touch rangers are fine as is. Touching someone is hard, unless they are going to stand still and let you in which case they deserve to die.

Don't nerf Touch rangers.

I couldn't have said it better myself....why is it that everytime a "god like" build comes out people want to nerf it? All builds have their counters so if you are getting pissed at so many people running this build then why dont you just run its counter all the time. If the build takes less "skill" dont complain...why must every build take skill and who is the one who defines what skill is anyway. If you dont like simple run the "complex" builds yourself dont care about someone elses build...If they are beating you with a simple build against your complex build...maybe that simple build is just better or is in better hands. STOP COMPLAINING.

Gargle Blaster · May 25, 2006, 07:26 PM // 19:26

yes i understand yall hate "nerfs" --please argue the issues.

Cyril Aspect, i had more in my post than what you quoted. please (re-)read all of my post(s) -- that would be great. m yeah.

lyra_song · May 25, 2006, 07:48 PM // 19:48

The only thing i am signing is a rewrite of the description to Expertise so its more clear that it covers everythign except Spells, Enchantments and Hexes.

Cyril Aspect · May 25, 2006, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gargle Blaster

yes i understand yall hate "nerfs" --please argue the issues.

Cyril Aspect, i had more in my post than what you quoted. please (re-)read all of my post(s) -- that would be great. m yeah.

I read your entire post and I clipped the relevant parts, nice office space reference but that doesn't save you or this thread form making a completely wasteful argument about why somehting thats barely effective needs to be nerfed. or balanced or whatever.

this whole discussion is absurd no touch ranger does sufficent dmg to kill anything if a single monk is present and RA is never ever ever a place to show imbalance.

one last thing. we all don't hate nerfs we hate it when they aren't even remotely necessary and people call for them anyway.

makosi · May 25, 2006, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

The only thing i am signing is a rewrite of the description to Expertise so its more clear that it covers everythign except Spells, Enchantments and Hexes.

Bingo. Correct the description and I'd happily accept the touch rangers. The description of Expertise and the reality of Expertise are slightly different at the moment which is causing a lot of confusion.

samifly · May 25, 2006, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

The only thing i am signing is a rewrite of the description to Expertise so its more clear that it covers everythign except Spells, Enchantments and Hexes.

Totally Agree, though people would probably get even more confused (a list of things it doesnt cover?), at least it would stop the talking about preps, attack skills, etc

get cha · May 30, 2006, 01:43 PM // 13:43

For my 2 cents, touch rangers are way too overpowered now. They even got wallow's bite which is another skill in the blood att line. You cant use skills like backfire or guilt cuz R/N use mostly all "skills", not "spells". and the 3/4 cast is incredibly hard to distract. Again, cuz they're "skills" theres no way to make the cast longer. "Spells", yes. "Attacks", yes. "Skills", nope.

Best I can really hope for in a lot of situations is to get one of the vamp touches with diversion.

And since they also use stances to avoid getting hit, why is wild blow the only thing that stops stances? Correct me if im wrong about that.

Undivine · May 30, 2006, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by get cha

And since they also use stances to avoid getting hit, why is wild blow the only thing that stops stances? Correct me if im wrong about that.

I believe there's an assassin equivelant now. But I agree with you about the necro "skills."